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H.G.'s avatar

This makes me think of this post https://www.designer-notes.com/game-developer-column-17-water-finds-a-crack/ on the more general problem of gamers compulsively optimizing the fun out of games.

I think Pandemic is a great example of this drive to optimize. I played it for the first time with a couple of friends, then we quickly ramped up the difficulty to find out when we would start losing. We also started consistently planning a couple turns in advance. After playing the game this way many times, we added one more friend who hadn't played the game at all. So we ended up playing a relatively simple game with perfect information on a high difficulty setting, and additionally the difficulty scales with how many people are playing, so we ended up with a dilemma. We could either:

- Not explicitly plan too quickly, giving the other player a chance to catch up, meaning the game went a lot slower and most people at the table were just waiting around for the new guy.

- Plan normally, basically reducing the new player to another resource.

- Have a much higher likelihood of losing explicitly because of the new player. As an aside, this is a pet peeve as well. I feel like there are a lot of cooperative games that punish you too much for adding another player. The new player becomes a liability and no one likes feeling like a liability. Then the alternative is of course playing a long game at a level of difficulty you already find easy. "Getting the new player up to speed" will inevitably mean some level of quarterbacking, as they are just told what the optimal strategy in a situation is. At this point, you're often just better off playing some other game entirely.

I'm a big fan of TTRPGs, I like being able to make fun and unique characters, but I still find myself compulsively looking up builds just to make sure I'm not leaving out some core class feature or trading too much effectiveness for flavor. This sucks! This is especially bad because I feel like TTRPG characters who are over-optimized stop being interesting individuals with a fun toolset to improvise with, but instead finely tuned machines that do one thing very well.

I'm trying to fix this in my own TTRPG. I have a draft where I'm organizing skills into "archetype tables" with a couple of semi-random mechanics for character progression. One idea is to have the main method of character progression be having players spend points to roll a couple of dice on an archetype table and choose one of the skills they landed on. Players would get access to new tables by aligning with some faction or learning from some person. Of course, this undercuts a basic sort of character freedom that I think TTRPG players expect, so maybe this is a terrible idea! Hopefully it lessens analysis paralysis and the drive to optimize, trading it for a rogue-lite sort of restrained/randomized set of choices.

Anyway, good post.

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Lunaris's avatar

This is a great read!

I definitely struggle to avoid “quarterbacking” myself in cooperative games. Probably because my brain likes solving puzzles and has very few opportunities to do so (that are enjoyable at least. Life has plenty of problems, but they are rarely any fun 💀).

I’m also used to managing a household, which can be tricky to remember to temporarily turn off.

I love cooperative games most, so it’s something I try to stay aware of.

Built in mechanics like the ones you described can help those of us that can be overbearing as well!

(Well, those of use that would rather not be at least)

Something else I’ve noticed some games do to help mitigate the quarterbacking problem is assigning roles to players, some of which are heavier on information/resource management, coordination, and problem solving than others.

When balanced cleverly this can work quite well, with the players functioning like a well designed RPG party.

But that balancing certainly seems tricky!

You need the simpler roles to be (at least) as vital to the team as the harder ones to manage.

And the more complex ones still need to feel worth playing and rewarding.

You don’t want players left feeling cheated, unappreciated, or entirely unnecessary.

Or end up with some players needing much longer than others to take their turns.

(Spirit Island also does this well imo)

I think you see some similar mechanics and balancing considerations in non cooperative games that assign drastically different gameplay mechanics to each character.

(Root comes to mind as a good game with drastically different mechanics for each character)

It is very fun mechanically, but it is often a bit rough figuring out which role/play style works best for you as a player. That can take several play-throughs, which is definitely not everyone’s cup of tea, and can be an unfun and discouraging process.

It’s also pretty easy to end up with at least one role in those types of games that are unbalanced (just bad) and never get used at all.

I think cooperative games have the upper hand with this design actually, as other players can at least assist and support a new player while they’re learning the ropes.

Even with an overbearing teammate, that is slightly less terrible than being completely steamrolled your first few times (or more) in a competitive game while you try to get your footing and find your preferred role.

(The longer the game, the worse that feeling!)

Look forward to playtesting your space restaurant game again sometime and seeing how it’s evolving!

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